what does church have to do with clowning? [Archive]

Glupi

02-02-2011, 03:18 PM

Caiti Erin,

I'm about to offer an opinion here that a LOT of clowns on this Forum won't like one bit. That said, I hope it helps you understand the kinds of people you're "talking to" when you ask a question like yours out here.

First, you have to define "clowning", and for hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have joined the Forum, "clowning" means "dressing in a costume while doing some sort of party-related skill for kids". It usually involves face-painting or twisting balloons, neither of which is a performable skill on its own. Notice the emphasis I used. More on that later.

Now that you have the definition of "clowning" that the VAST majority of these people use, you have to go on to the MOTIVE behind their "clowning". These are people who, if it were not for a clown costume or a cheap wig, would be trying anything they could to "reach" people, especially kids, with their version of the Christian "gospel".

I am NOT going to address the validity of their "gospel" nor their sincerity, but I will say that the MAJOR similarity in NEARLY ALL of the "clowns" who are involved in "clown ministry" can best be summed up by something someone said earlier in this very thread:

"...clowning is just anouther tool you can use to do those things."

THERE, my dear, is the FATAL FLAW that exists in almost EVERY so-called "Christian Clown" or "clown ministry" that is around these days, with the exception of a SELECT FEW, who shall remain nameless.

What is the flaw? It's the idea that my PITCH, my AGENDA, my MESSAGE is the thing that drives the show. That kind of thinking is what makes car dealerships hire costumed wavers or have giant inflatable whatevers in their lot. It's all for ATTENTION, but no one, I mean NO ONE, is fooled into thinking that they are going to the car lot to see SpongeBob or whoever. If someone goes to a car lot, they EXPECT to be pitched to by a salesman. It's a no-brainer.

When a person is in a church, they either are already a "believer", or they are a lapsed "believer" who needs to "come back to the Lord" or what-have-you. Otherwise, if they identify as a non-believer, they are either in a church as the polite guest of a member, or they are already pretty much disposed toward what they are going to see and hear. Of course they are... otherwise they would go elsewhere. If you want Italian food, you go to an Italian restaurant; if not, you go where they have what you are already in the mood for. Follow me so far? Good.

What makes "Christian clowning" so (typically) AWFUL is that same attitude that the car salesmen have. The "clowns" say, 'let's dress as clowns, and then people will think we're creative and then they'll listen to us'. No, they won't. They will already be predisposed to listening to you, or they will see you as a person in a costume trying to sell them something.

That is, of course, unless one is a CLOWN who happens to be a Christian, and not a Christian who is pretending to be a clown.

CLOWNS ARE FUNNY. Christian clowns don't NEED CHURCHES to be GREAT clowns. There are VERY famous clowns who were and are believing Christians who do NOT "use" clowning as a "tool" to share whatever. They simply perform to the best of their abilities and they are FUNNY. Often HILARIOUS. It's their PERSONAL LIVES that make their faith attractive, not a costume or a sales pitch.

What does CLOWNING have to do with church? NOTHING.

Great clowns are FUNNY clowns. Christians "win" people by example, just like every other person with a message of peace always has and always will. A clown costume isn't a tool for "sharing the gospel", it's a cheap coverup for proselytizing people when other efforts fail.

How do I know? Look up clown "ministries" and see how many of them perform for "non believers". They don't... they perform "skits" (IN churches, FOR Christians) that only other Christians really get the significance of, and then they pat each other on the back over their "ministry".

Bello Nock doesn't hand out Bibles during shows... want to bet he's a better Christian clown that 99% of the others out there? I'd take that bet in a heartbeat.

Caiti Erin, if you see or hear anyone talking about "clowning" as a "tool", you are very likely (not always, but very often) listening to or reading a VERY unfunny person's words.

Try finding the FUNNY and CREATIVE and ZANY and ENTERTAINING clowns first, then take what they have to say as PEOPLE into consideration.

Glupi

02-02-2011, 03:21 PM

"As clowns we want to make people laugh at our comedy antics, as christians we want to share a message of LOVE, JESUS and the FORGIVENESS of Sin..."

Rodney, Rodney... how I WISH even 10% of the people who call themselves "Christian clowns" thought like you do.

Most of them just want to turn a boring skit about God's love into a boring skit about God's love with red noses on.

PLEASE, Rodney, start a class or a school or a compound so we can chain those people to the walls and get some FUNNY into them before they go calling themselves clowns. Please!

NormaL T. Joey

02-02-2011, 04:22 PM

Christian clowns don't NEED CHURCHES to be GREAT clowns. But to be great christians me need to be the Church...

People might not come out to your church { Building } but if you invite them to a Circus, then they might come out, and the very Funny clown [s] can share though there gags the Gospel, using the Ring Curb at the end of the show for an Alter...you can do a Alter call and ask people if they would like to make Jesus the Lord of there Lives...

I live for the Alter Call...Romans 10 : 9-10 this is the real reason I clown, getting people saved...All the Glory go's to the Lord...thank you Jesus for Salvation.

I Love every one of you out there...NormaL T. Joey

NormaL T. Joey

02-02-2011, 05:01 PM

Christianity is not a denomination, you are saved or your not saved. It's that black or white...the Only thing I can take ...with me in the End is some body Else...Mark 16: 15

Just because you can speak "christian ease" in a gag, skit, or magic patter doesn't make it a christian any thing...if your not saved, your not saved. A christian is Christ like, And if your not a christian and just going through the motions to be part of something...then it will not have the conviction of real Christianity...Christian Clowning is not a game that any old or young clown can play. It's not christian, if your not sold out to Jesus, Salvation, and the Forgiveness of Sin.

It's easy to change that, just ask in pray for the Lord to forgive you of your sins and come into your Heart and Life...Ask Jesus to be the Lord of your life...Amen

Now read your bible every day...

Praise, Pray and Thank God for all the wonderful things happening in your, if you feel like it or not...it's not about feels. You are saved by faith, alone...

Go to a church building and fellowship with other believers...be the Body of Christ, the church together with other Believers...

The reason the church go's into a building is to get out of the cold in the winter months, and out of the rain...and even out of the heat in the Summer...

The Building is not the church, just the place we meet together...

Also learn how to share your Faith with others...the only thing you can take with you in the end is some body else...

Luke 14 : 23

Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full.

161 unsaved People die every minute. People are dying to go to Hell! Who are you Dying to Save?

Pray and ask God how to use your clowning to win some to the Lord, so that the house of the Lord [heaven] will be full.

What does church have to do with clowning? Nothing, but how can you use clowning to fill the Church?

Alex

02-02-2011, 06:17 PM

...There's only two Kinds of Clowns in the World today. The Ones Saved and the ones that are going to get saved...Christianity is not a denomination, you are saved or your not saved. It's that black or white...

I guess I'm going to hell.

tim

02-02-2011, 08:00 PM

I guess I'm going to hell.

No. You're not Irish Catholic.

Alpha Clown

02-02-2011, 08:10 PM

I am There with you Alex....

LuvLee

02-02-2011, 09:09 PM

Alpha Clown,,,,a real door knocker? Then why the sad face?

Alpha Clown

02-02-2011, 10:37 PM

not a door knocker one of the glass pendents I made.

Glupi

02-02-2011, 10:41 PM

I was going to rant...

Really, FCOL, are you preacher-types honestly trying to back guys like Alex and AC into a corner? How do you think all that Bible-thumping made any of us feel who DON'T approach life or religion the way you do?

This had better not turn into a place where it matters what goes on outside the damned makeup. This is a Forum for CLOWNS, not for "clowns plus part of the in-crowd".

Not everyone here approaches life from the same perspective. That's one of the things that makes for such varied and vital characters among those who "dare to be different".

Some clowns don't need bad yamma makeup to be scary.

Prose

02-03-2011, 02:45 AM

I guess I'm going to hell.

*Raises hand* Me too! I'll bring snacks!

I have toyed with the idea of Pagan clowning though...

Rainbeau

02-03-2011, 10:03 AM

Pagans do tend to take paganism too seriously, and those Picts do overdo it with the facepainting.

Glupi

02-03-2011, 10:04 AM

Glupi

02-03-2011, 10:07 AM

Pagans do tend to take paganism too seriously, and those Picts do overdo it with the facepainting.

How on earth would you know how seriously pagans tend to take their beliefs?

Oh, and WHAT pics overdo it with facepainting? I certainly hope you're not referring to miss Prose.

I smell a yamma...

Rainbeau

02-03-2011, 10:17 AM

I was referring to the Picts practice of wearing only blue paint. I see some smurfish, blue clowns in profiles here but all seem to wear a costume too. Besides it would be cold in the weather like we're having here now. I'm clowning inside until spring myself.

Glupi

02-03-2011, 10:20 AM

What on earth are you talking about? Who the heck are the Picts and why do they only wear blue paint?

EDIT: I did some fast reading... what do Celtic warrior pagans have to do with anyone's profile on here?

Did I miss something that people are passing around? I'd sure like to try it, whatever it is. Seems like
pretty strong stuff there, Rainbeau.

Prose

02-03-2011, 12:07 PM

Rainbeau -if you are referring to Gardnerian Wiccans/Pagans then YES they do take things a little too seriously. They're like the Fundamentalists of Paganism. However, like the Fundamentalists of Christianity they are loud, but thankfully very few. But I am still grateful for Gerald Gardner and his contributions to earth based religions as it very much shaped its (somewhat) acceptance in modern society.
I am not a Gardnerian, and having said that... I don't think I've ever been to a ritual where there wasn't an occasional swear, lewd joke or reference to "The Princess Bride" and/or various Monty Python films, made.
One of the reasons I enjoy Pagan rituals and ceremonies so much is because of the lack of all that seriousness that some of the more "stuffy" churches (but certainly not ALL -I have been to some very enlightened churches as well that I approved of) I have gone to are known for.

hoopsie

02-03-2011, 12:13 PM

Thanks so much for your responses Glupi and Prose. You're beliefs and views should be respected just as much as any others, and not attacked. People should follow the dictates of their own conscience in choosing what and how they worship. Freedom and tolerance for other's beliefs is fundamental to the free practices we enjoy in this country. Let everyone be given their dignity and their right to assemble and worship, be it Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Muslim, or any others. 8-)

Prose

02-03-2011, 12:19 PM

Prose,

There always has been and always will be a pagan element to clowning.

Society has always favored the convention, the rule, the propriety that is supposed to govern conduct, even when it can't control the thought-life.

Clowning, in its purest and most effective form, does away with propriety and conformity.

What is the definition of a pagan, after all, but that a pagan is someone who does not conform to a standard (in this case, a religious and often socio-political one)?

Have you ever met someone or read a story about someone who was supposed to be so serious and important, only to find out they enjoyed a good "naughty" joke?

It's not that they act OUT of character when they laugh at a joke... the truth is that their character, their heart, is being REVEALED from behind the facade of uprightness and uptight-ness that is supposed to serve as their "face".

Clowning calls everyone to abandon the facade and watch, react and laugh openly, disregarding what anyone else sees in our act or how anyone else reacts to it.

It's intensely personal, not like the mass-marketing spiel that goes on with some "preachers". One size, no matter how important the issues may be, does NOT fit all.

The worst thing someone can do is take clowning and box it up and make it wear someone's company logo; clowning is not supposed to be the thing we draw people IN with, it's supposed to be the thing you set people FREE with.

Agreed. I always believed that Paganism and clowning could tie into one another. Our rituals are often elaborate and very much based on story telling in virtually any Pantheon you follow be it Celtic, Norse, Egyptian, or Greco-Roman. (Yes, I have friends who follow each of these lol...)
Take for example the Pueblo clowns of the Southwestern United States. In the case of the Hopi Indians (taken from Wikipedia):
"Among the Hopi there are five figures who serve as clowns: the Payakyamu, the Koshare, the Tsuku, the Tatsiqto and the Kwikwilyak. With the exception of the Koshare, each is a kachinam or personification of a spirit. It is believed that when a member of a kiva dons the mask of a kachinam, he abandons his personality and becomes possessed by the spirit."

In a way, we do this with modern clowning. When we slap on that greasepaint we abandon our current socially constructed and self-conscious selves and become our "clown selves" who are not limited by insecurities and reflect our inner desires and passions.

*Bows gracefully and walks off-stage.*

tim

02-03-2011, 01:00 PM

*Raises hand* Me too! I'll bring snacks!

Roasted marshmellows!!!

NormaL T. Joey

02-03-2011, 01:37 PM

Salvation is a free choose,... that any one can make, for them selfs... John 3: 16

If you come to a christian thread about christian clowning you should respected the Subject...

What does church have to do with clowning? Nothing and everything...if you are talking about the building, then clowning has nothing to do with the Church building ,unless you are going into the building to perform...if you are talking about the christian who is a clown...then it has everything to do with clowning, because the church...is the christian person in the clown make up. We all know that clowning is more then make up and costuming...it's much to do with characterization. And the things we do in clown character, that makes use FUNNY.

Glupi

02-03-2011, 02:07 PM

it is not right for any one to come to a thread about clowning any not stay on the subject...

Funny that you should say that, Rodney. This thread was about what CLOWNING has to do with church. I believe I've stayed on that topic.

You've decided that this thread, and many others, are exclusively yours to use as platforms for your personal religious views.

I do not, and I know others here who do not, share those views.

Again, you demonstrate that clowning is a TOOL that you "use" in order to advance your particular ideology.

When you sign up for a membership on a forum, you are generally discouraged from using said forum as a "pool" of potential customers.

I understand this is the "Church and Ministry CLOWNING" sub-forum, but I take that to mean that it's for discussing CLOWNING, not for discussing the merits of your particular religion, nor for personal evangelizing.

Seems that the non-believers have outnumbered the believers in relevant answers.

Now then, again, for the record: I posit that CLOWNING, as an art form, is diminished as an expression of creativity when it is subjugated under the determined presupposition that making converts to a religion is paramount in importance in an environment where "clowning" is allegedly taking place.

In English: Clown not funny when clown is just salesman in costume.

Now, if this thread would drift back to what CLOWNING has to do with church, and not what clown COSTUMES, etc have to do with church, maybe we'll get somewhere.

tim

02-03-2011, 02:38 PM

Salvation is a free choose,...to the Jew first and then every one else...

After you, Alex! (Everybody form a line.)

t. hooks

02-03-2011, 02:47 PM

Whats a Yamma?

Alex

02-03-2011, 03:48 PM

After you, Alex! (Everybody form a line.)

Srsly... a Holocaust joke?!

Glupi

02-03-2011, 04:24 PM

Whats a Yamma?

In my experience (others may correct me if I'm wrong), a "yamma" clown is someone who, despite bad makeup, cheap costuming and/or wig, no performable skills and basically no funny, keeps going around saying

"Yeah, I'm a clown".

Say it quickly and it sounds like "yamma clown".

I use yamma for short. So do a lot of other people. It's not a particularly nice word, but it gets the point across.

I generally use yamma in situations where whatever is being brought up, defended or encouraged in a conversation gives away the fact that there's nothing clown-related being said.

When someone tries to side-track a thread about CLOWNING so that they can start a religious fight because they think they can win, that tells me that there's nothing about to come from them that teaches anyone about clowning.

Hence, a yamma clown is very likely nearby.

If you PM me, I can point you to tons of examples, both in writing and in other media, of yamma clowns.

t. hooks

02-03-2011, 04:41 PM

Oh.

Thanks...

I guess my Texas accent throws it off when i pronounce it...

Glupi

02-03-2011, 10:38 PM

Don't worry, T. My biological family is from Texas and even though I was raised by northerners on the East Coast, there's still the littlest hint of y'all in my voice. Must be genetic.

I noticed that the soap-box-standing has died down. Maybe it's just cause people were at work, or 'cause it's late as I post this.

Really, though, it saddens me that some of the people who claim to have the most joy and the most happiness in life because of their beliefs are often proving to be not very funny or caring clowns.

Yes, there are exceptions. I know some clowns out here who are Christians who also happen to be funny and creative clowns.

Unfortunately, however, it just seems that discussions like this one, harmless little questions like "what does clowning have to do with church" turn into big arguments about people's RIGHT to go out and spread their "message".

Let me try one more time, for gits and shiggles... Nobody out here on this Forum should be caring a rip what your message is. Whether ANYONE out here agrees or disagrees with your religious beliefs SHOULD BE immaterial.

Problem is, so many of you Christian folks take what's said about being FUNNY and CREATIVE clowns, and not just automatons who spew a pre-recorded jive talk about heaven and hell, and you turn these threads into your battlegrounds.

It doesn't matter in the slightest whether you're right or wrong about your religion, friends. You couldn't go turn an entire circus entree into your personal platform, could you? How about a theater rehearsal? No, because the topic of the day is NOT the validity of your particular belief system.

Can this sub-forum PLEASE get back to being about ministry CLOWNING and not about having fights over who is a "true believer"?

I grew up with a magician for a pastor. Here's the deal, though... he was a BOSS magician, BIG TIME (he mentored some guys that I could name and make you go ooh and aah), and came from a long line of vaudeville and circus people before he was a man of the cloth. Guess what made his magic shows great?

Wait for it...

IT WAS THE MAGIC, NOT THE PITCH.

tim

02-04-2011, 01:36 AM

Srsly... a Holocaust joke?!

Brought to you by Jerry Lewis:

The Day The Clown Cried

NormaL T. Joey

02-04-2011, 10:00 AM

Explain to me what you mean when you say Clown Ministry?

Jesus isn't a religion he God in the Flesh...

The word Ministry means to Meet Needs...the greatest need that all of mankind has is SALVATION!

Clown Ministry to me...is helping people find SALVATION Romans 10: 9-10 using the clown character, and doing gags, gospel magic and any number of other things that are Funny as you share the Gospel through... your performes...as a Clown.

The Subject on this thread was what does the church have to do with clowning...

To the best of my ability I have tryed to explain what this means to me...

I have spent way to much of my time, trying to defend my posts that I have gotten way off the subjust...

I have better things to do with my time, then to write posts that a only a few want to read any ways...

I am a Chrsitain, that to me means Blood Bought, I am not or ever will write about religion...

"In English: Clown not funny when clown is just salesman in costume."

I don't care if a funny clown is all you want to be, be the funniest clown...you can be!

If one person is brought to salvation through my Clowning, please Lord let be the best salesman I can be...

To me, Clown Ministry means to meet needs, and the greatest of all the needs, is that mankind has is the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ...

You don't have to be in clown ministry to be a Funny clown...

But you do have to be Funny if you are in Clown Ministry...

Luvin you all NormaL T. Joey

I think if some body really wants to be plug in with me come an befriend me at facebook.com Rodney Burnap

I think I will try to do most of my posting about clown ministry on my thread I started call Hard Core Christian Clowning...

Glupi

02-04-2011, 02:57 PM

Rodney, you go right ahead and keep doing all of your posting in the thread you started.

Just goes to show that you don't have anything to contribute to this particular thread.

I just went and re-read that ENTIRE thread.

It's not a thread about Christian CLOWNING, it's a thread about being YOUR particular kind of Christian. It says NOTHING about how to be a better, funnier, more creative clown.

There are a couple of links to circus-equipment suppliers; they were useful.

Really, though, when you go stomping off in a huff, you should probably have a valid point to be upset about.

The OP in this thread asked about CLOWNING, not religion. You spent the next however many messages railing about how YOUR beliefs don't compromise a religion, but a relationship.

Think that all you want. I suppose that's why we're not discussing clowning here, but your personal beliefs. It's because you define everything differently than the rest of us.

Why not do us a favor and give us YOUR definition of CLOWNING?

tyanbe

02-04-2011, 03:49 PM

Clown in church can mock people in church and show them their inner selves too. For instance, one skit the clown demostrates his love for Jesus. Gives Jesus his heart balloon, his coat, money, water flower, all and all because he loves Jesus soooo much. But when the Hobo clown comes begging he runs him off and gives him nothing. From the passage somewhere in the bible, Jesus says, "How can you love Me who you have never seen but not love those that dwell among you." Or another clown friends wants an ice cream. Clown takes his money and buys friend an ice cream. Then asks clown can he have a lick from the cone. The clown refuses. First he asks nicely, then he begs, then he announces if it wasn't for me you wouldn't even have had that ice cream in the first place. "The importance of tithing." If you get it's meaning. I'm not sure if someone who isn't Christian can come up with these things. Maybe they can though. But churches have a lot of banquets, youth retreats, conventions, etc. and they want entertainment with a meaning that agrees with their doctrine. Like a schools and libraries want edutainment.

NormaL T. Joey

02-04-2011, 06:54 PM

Can I first introduce myself, my name is Rodney Burnap...I am Hippie, and chaplain to the Rainbow Family of Living Light...Rainbow's are a Nomadic Tribe of Hippies. There are over 25 million rainbow's in the World today... You can go on to youtube video's and type in Rainbow Gathering to learn more...I have been a clown for more then 30 years...I have studied with some of the best Ringling clowns...

I was not always a Christian...

I practiced Wicca for 25 years. I was a third degree high Priest in a skyclad collective training Coven. I was sold out to Wicca the Goddess and her consort. 12 to 15 years ago some one told me about the Love of a Almighty God who payed the price for my sins. I was trying to cut my Kharma by doing good and learning the lessons so I could evolve Spiritually and get off the Kharmic wheel of Life. We called this the Great Work....... the real meaning of the third degree initiation. No matter how hard I tried My good works were doing nothing for me. I still had all my insecurities and fears, we called this facing your shadow. One day some one told me about the Love of God, I prayed and ask Jesus to forgive me of all my sins. The Love I felt at that very moment was some thing I had never felt before. I no longer had to try to cut my Kharma. I no longer had to try to know Spirit. I instantly Knew I was in the presence of a Holy Being.......I had never known this feeling of Love and well Being Like I did at that instant. God has revealed him self to me in the Person of Jesus Christ of the Holy BiBle. All I want to do ultimatly is be in the presence of this Love and bring others into right relationship with God so they can know this Love and forgiveness of there sin. What I was trying to do through religion (Wicca) God did it for me . All I needed to do was to let go and stop trying. Jesus payed a debt he did not owe, I owed a dept I could not pay. Jesus payed the price for for my sins and yours, we call this Grace.........Kind Friend in Jesus name.....NormaL T. Joey Jesus Tribes Rainbow Family of Living Light

Who is Normal T. Joey ...A little about who NormaL T. Joey is...I am a Servant of the Most High God.
I am a Hippie, Circus Clown, Christian Sage, Minister of the Gospel, Herald, A Servant Leader.
Road Dawg by Fully Loaded Touring Bicycle... I am nothing, He is Everything...A lover of People and a friend, a kind Brother. A Jesus Lover, Jesus Freak, Born Again, Out of BABYLON! Jesus is My Lord! A Focalizer for Gods Kingdom in Jesus Name!

...

"Livng Light"... is a hyperbole for the Logos of God. The Microcosm... the only and true God Man...Jesus The Christ!
More than a metaphor, the Depts been Payed in full, stop trying...start Trusting. There's nothing you can do; it's been done for you!

Christianity is not the politics of a denomination...

Please if that is all christianity is lets all go an smoke a joint...

But Christianity is the teachings of Jesus, my LORD and Savior...

I gave up everything, but what I could carry on a Loaded Touring Bicycle and lived in the woods so I could love on some Hippies...

Jesus doesn't ask for much, but your whole being...

He loves you man...

And knows you better then you know your self...

If you are a clown, be a clown, but life has more meaning then just living 60 to 85 years then dying...

God is a personal God and his name is Jesus...

This is not just some religious trip I am talking about...

There are millions of religions, my God loves you and wants to have a relationship with you man!

He wants to get to know you in a personal way...

By the way I have traveled over 30 thousand miles on my bicycle, and living with what I could carry in 4 Panniers...

I am nothing, He is everything...I would die to bring his message to you...Jesus Loves you this I know for the Bible tells me so...

Luvin' you Kind Brothers and Sisters...Circus Clown NormaL T. Joey

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=154725964547006#!/profile.php?id=1830882061

Prose

02-04-2011, 07:29 PM

A good friend of mine once said "religion is for people who don't want to go to hell. Spirituality is for those who have been through hell and don't want to go back."
Similarly, I have yet to meet a clown who doesn't carry some sadness, or hasn't experience some traumatic event from their past -which typically influences their clowning in some way.
I think given these two statements the link between clowning and spirituality is very evident.

LuvLee

02-04-2011, 08:55 PM

The key is knowing the difference between religion and spirituality,,,,I wouldn't have said
it in those words, but I think you hit it pretty close to the nail.
I truly think this thread has been interesting with all it's different views, but have we learned anything?
My answer is that I don't believe the church actually has anything to do with clowning,,,
I do know that clowning has been a small part of our churches teaching methods, I believe
one can have both or none,,,,,but one should have ONE. My first choice wouldn't be clowning,
but then,,,,,I have or had both. Sometime the church has a clown or two and know body knows
they are there,,,,,,different than clowning, and clowning is different than worshiping.
This is only my own opinion and my own belief.

NormaL T. Joey

02-05-2011, 12:20 AM

Attention...Ladies and Gentlemen! Here he is....
The Funniest Funster, Boasting the Bigest Bag fulls of Buffoonery,
TICKING THE FUNNY BONE...Circus Clown " NormaL T. Joey "
Circus Clowning at it's best for All Occasions 928-276-1351
...
...... Gags [skits] Magic Shows, Face Painting, Walk_arounds [carpet clowning] Meet and Greet, Juggling, Gags and Giggles, the Zanniest Circus Clown in the whole Plantet...Luvin you NormaL T. Joey for All Occasions Playing center ring at your next party or Event.

A Clown is a Performing artist that has the unique ability to entertain as a living cartoon. Using make-up characterization, costuming and props, this acting form is brought to it's highest levels of entertainment.

I have taught clowning at Arizona State University, in Tempe Arizona and at many smaller venues...

Physical Comdey 101

characterization

Costuming

Gags

Make-up

I am a Carpet Clown...and would fill in while the Ring Curb sets were changed...
And other acts were being set up...

I love doing Ring Gags with other clowns...

Clown Band using jub band instruments...
Washboard playing, Tub bass, Comb and Karooz playing, jug...

Fool's Wisdom Clown Circus... A Zany Place to be...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=154725964547006

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brD2ChfNVFo

Prose

02-05-2011, 03:02 AM

In my experience (others may correct me if I'm wrong), a "yamma" clown is someone who, despite bad makeup, cheap costuming and/or wig, no performable skills and basically no funny, keeps going around saying

"Yeah, I'm a clown".

Say it quickly and it sounds like "yamma clown".

Wow. I've heard that term for quite some time now, but I had no idea what the origins were. Makes sense...

NormaL T. Joey

02-05-2011, 06:43 AM

I don't need to Justify the Gospel...I have to live it...and living it I am compelled to use every method at my disposal to Share, Preach or Perform the message of the Cross. John 3:3 John 3:16

It's not clowning that I am trying to lift up......I get to use clowning to lift of the Gospel before all people's...

Scruffy

02-05-2011, 06:53 AM

To clarify something earlier. A Yamma is the archetypical one piece clown costume. It is not a small skullcap worn by Jewish men. although Alex and Jozo are allowed to do both; at the same time.
carry on.

Glupi

02-05-2011, 09:36 AM

I still like my definition better :p

Maybe Alex or Jozo (or anyone that knows) could answer this:

Are there, or have their been, "clown"-type characters in Jewish secular or religious tradition? I'm sure every religion has had it share of "holy fools", but I wonder if there are notable examples in Judaism.

All I can recall are stereotypes of Jewish people in old comedies, and those not coming from sympathetic admirers, either.

Alex

02-05-2011, 10:58 AM

I can't think of any that stick out... But I will do some research.

Pinky the Clown

02-05-2011, 11:15 AM

Job 8:21 He will yet fill your mouth with laughter[/URL] and your lips with shouts of joy. (http://www.clown-forum.com/church-ministry-clowning/1949-what-does-church-have-do-clowning-6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1)

Proverbs 17:22 A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.[URL="http://www.clown-forum.com/church-ministry-clowning/1949-what-does-church-have-do-clowning-6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-24"] (http://www.clown-forum.com/church-ministry-clowning/1949-what-does-church-have-do-clowning-6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-23)

I couldn't find the bible translation that tranlates this verse "Laughter is good medicine."

The medical community is just starting to realize that laughter is good medicine. http://www.helpguide.org/life/humor_laughter_health.htm (http://www.helpguide.org/life/humor_laughter_health.htm)

Think about this, all cultures laugh so that must mean that our Creator created us to laugh. Why not use laughter to share God's love to people?

Glupi

02-05-2011, 01:06 PM

Pinky, we certainly can and should use laughter to communicate love and a host of other emotional messages.

That said, however, I think I've made it pretty clear that communicating TRUTHS about love, etc is NOT the same thing as "using clowning as a tool".

There were some examples of "skits" (clowns don't use skits; Boy Scouts at camp-outs do... clowns use gags or routines) in an earlier post that were supposed to demonstrate "Christian clowning". What they demonstrated was that the same "skits" that non-costumed people use in churches can be used by people dressed in so-called "clown" costumes. That didn't make their "skits" funny at all.

There are ways to be a FUNNY clown and still communicate truths that can be found in Christianity. I just don't think that the sales-pitch, turn-or-burn style of evangelism is compatible with clown humor. When the goal is not laughter but conversion, the funny is lost.

Prose

02-05-2011, 04:12 PM

There are ways to be a FUNNY clown and still communicate truths that can be found in Christianity. I just don't think that the sales-pitch, turn-or-burn style of evangelism is compatible with clown humor. When the goal is not laughter but conversion, the funny is lost.

This is one of the (very) few times in which I will utter this word but...

Amen.

NormaL T. Joey

02-05-2011, 09:16 PM

...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l5_enAMQJo

This is a VERY FUNNY VIDEO....

I have read back through all the post here and not found one of them saying anything about heaven or hell ot turn or Burn...

If all you have is clowning, then where is the true Ministry...

If all I have to do is make people feel good about them selfs, thats not clowning or ministry...

Clowning will move people in a myriad of emotions...

Some are very Funny,and Others are very Poetic...

I once watched a gag called a clowns communion...

It had everyone in tears of joy...

No one laughed even onces, but this gag was one of the best clown performance I had ever had the privilege to see...

I believe that we are all right with our opinions, even if no one agrees...

We are not taking a consensus...

If you don't agree with everything I post...great...I surely not agreeing with everything that has been posted...

In the end I have learned something, and with that I say thank you...

I am not going to attack you, or imply you are wrong in a public forum...

Really I came here as a Newbie, thank you I have grown...

In saying all of that I will not be so open minded that my brains fall out...

NormaL T. Joey, some might say you are just a Nut and to that I will say your right, but I am scewed on to the Right Bolt

Glupi

02-05-2011, 10:21 PM

...churches have a lot of banquets, youth retreats, conventions, etc. and they want entertainment with a meaning that agrees with their doctrine. Like a schools and libraries want edutainment.

Interesting point there that I just reread. I wanted to make an observation about Tyanbe's comment which I quoted above.

Churches want entertainment with a meaning that agrees with their doctrine for many reasons, but, especially in America, for one important reason: because it's conformity to doctrine, and NOT necessarily the value of a changed life, that is the measure of a Christian.

Why is it that Bello Nock doesn't see fit to become a "Christian Clown" who has John 3:16 stitched into his costume in sequins? Why don't so many other clowns who identify as Christian do something similar? It's because their influence on audiences all over the WORLD is based on their TALENT and not on whether they toe a particular religious line.

When a person embraces such "either/or" theology as has been expressed in threads recently, they ultimately absolve themselves of any responsibility for whether their audience listens and responds or even appreciates what they have done.

This is why there are MILLIONS of families in the world lamenting the waywardness of their children and teenagers; it's because they thought that indoctrinating their kids into the facts and figures from their Bibles would somehow inoculate the youngsters from the nastiness of "the world, the flesh and the devil". Sadly, among those millions who lament the "backsliding" of their kids are many, many people who are willing to write their kids off as "lost" or "damned" because "the kids know the truth; it's all on their heads now. We told them the gospel truth and they aren't living for the Lord now, so they have to answer to God for their lives."

Think carefully, Christian clown. Are you, or are the people around you who claim to be involved in "ministry", lulling yourself into a false sense of security about your "mission" because you know you're using good old Bible truth in your "skits"?

What's the real reason that so many people ignore comedy and theatrical license and creativity and even controversy when it comes to "Christian clowning"?

I believe the real reason is because many of you are trying to sell the kids on your story while they're young, and, failing to convert so many, failing to make it "stick", you reassure yourselves by saying "at least we know we're telling the truth". It's the classic martyr complex. You're going to be the lone ship against the tide, and sail on, and damn the torpedoes!

I think there's a real unhealthy and deep-rooted fear in you lot; I think you're afraid that the stories aren't sticking and the "sinner's prayers" aren't really changing anyone, but you won't admit it. Failing to be brave enough to admit that the system of indoctrination just doesn't work, you instead curry favor with the preachers and the elders and deacons and whoever by dressing up for your congregations and toeing the religious party line.

Not very brave, Christian clown. Try taking the REAL leap of faith and demonstrating your love for people through your art instead of through the bait-and-switch of "decision-based evangelism".

Oh, yes... churches want entertainment that agrees with their doctrine, because they want to believe they're right even when they aren't getting the results they so desperately wish for.

Take a comedian out of a comedy club and he can still be funny, because there are lots of different kinds of people who will find his material funny. Take the average "Christian clown" out of their church environment, and the whole thing falls flat because they're no longer preaching to the choir.

Just some food for thought. Hate me if you like; I just want to see some honest assessments of our definitions of clowning before we pretend that our "clowning" is really making a difference to anyone but ourselves and our cheering sections.

tim

02-06-2011, 01:02 AM

Blood Bought

Well, now there's an interesting and cathcy potential title for a clown show.

Simon the Brat

02-06-2011, 06:17 AM

Psssst! Hey myster clown, you wanna buy some blurrd?

JOZO

02-09-2011, 02:53 PM

tim

02-09-2011, 03:11 PM

Aren't many legendary American comedians and writers essentially the contemporary Jewish "holy fools?" It's been said that one necessarily develops a certain cultural sense of humour when he has been through as much as the Jewish people historically have.

Alex

02-09-2011, 03:27 PM

OH MY GOD! How could I forget that the one of the most prominent clowns in pop-culture is Jewish?! Ladies and gentleman...
http://www.netbrawl.com/uploads/e11c89b0995f0d6a2c3cf1c2f57c5107.jpg
Krusty the Clown

Glupi

02-09-2011, 04:55 PM

Just looked it up... Frank Avruch, Boston's Bozo, is also Jewish.

Hence, Krusty's heritage... After all, Dan Castellaneta has gone on record saying that Krusty's voice and some of his general "look" were very much based on Avruch's portrayal of TWMFC.

I think, as Tim said, there's a lot to be said for a sense of humor as it relates to getting through tough times. If that can be said of most people, it can certainly be said of the Jewish people since antiquity.

I wonder if some of the prophets weren't considered "holy fools"?

Certainly, within the major stream of Christian history, Francis of Assisi is considered, as he called himself, "God's Fool". He and his followers, the Fratres Minores (Little Brothers) were often seen as both quite holy AND quite insane. Francis was known as "le jongleur de Dieu" (the minstrel/poet/fun-maker of God). He and Clare of Assisi also conferred that same title, as a term of endearment, on one or two others.

Interesting that it's the madness or unorthodoxy of a person's BEHAVIOR that is at LEAST as significant as any orthodoxy of their belief.

Seems to make much more sense, and have much more impact, than a calculated effort to ensnare and indoctrinate.

NormaL T. Joey

02-10-2011, 09:02 AM

To be a christian is not based on your religious denomination. There are millions of Jewish people that were chrstians...

Jesus was Jewish, most of the first century church was Jewish.

The Fastest growing branch of Judaism today is Messianic Judaism. Thats Jewish People that except Jesus as there Messiah.

Salvation...John 3:3 John 3:16 Romans 10: 9-10

Christianity is based not on traditions...of a religious denomination.

The Bible is the only revelation for christianity...

What denomination did Jesus start?

Jesus came to Earth to fulfill the Law of Moses...Jesus is the Logos of God...

John 1:1

My reason for being a clown is to be funny most of the time in my Gags...

I wear over $ 800.00 worth of costuming when in character...

If I am going to be in a Gag, I will wear over size clothing from a thrift store...

Costume changes you know...

To be dedicated to your Craft [Clowning] it will cost you something, time money and practice...

And you do have to pay a price to be a great Clown Performer, I know I have not always been willing...to do the Work...

As clowns I want to make people laugh at my comedy antics, as a christian I want to share a message of LOVE, JESUS and the FORGIVENESS of Sin...

I DON'T need to advertise my self as a great clown...

I do have to bring great laughter...

The people will vote with there Laughter...

And that doesn't mean I'm a great any thing, just a funny clown in that Bit of Business...

Luvin you NormaL T. Joey

Glupi

02-10-2011, 01:14 PM

Rodney,

Seriously, now... I think this is going a little too far.

EVERY time you've had something to post in this thread, you've made it clear that your idea of "salvation" was in the balance.

According to YOU, Christianity is not a "religion".

According to the English and Latin languages, it most certainly is.

From: Religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion)

"A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

Now, for our little Latin lesson.

RE (pronounced like ray) = again, or over and over, continuously.

LIGARE (like lee-gar-ay) = to bind, tie or make fast to something.

Hence the word religion, meaning to continuously bind one's self to something, i.e. your set of beliefs.

I am VERY sure, without asking him, that Alex is not in the least bit interested in whether so-called "messianic judaism (sic)" is the "fastest growing branch of Judaism " or of anything.

By the way, "Messiainic Judaism" (sic) is neither Messianic NOR a legitimate strain of Jewish tradition, but rather an evangelical gentile Christian movement with a veneer of "Jewish" symbolism, and that often badly misinterpreted.

Now, if you would just have taken everything in that last post of yours, starting with "To be..." and ending with "John 1:1", and just deleted it, you would have had the beginnings of a fine little discussion about, here's the odd part... CLOWNING.

Really, Rodney. Let me do a little indoctrinating of my own into MY "special knowledge" now, ok?

I was raised in a fundamentalist home.

I went to Bible college at one of the most arch-conservative Baptist schools in the world, let alone the US.

In my "travels" through the morass of denominational politics, personal vendettas and strife and utter hypocrisy, I served as:

a staff pastor
a youth and children's worker
a worship leader
an evangelist
a Sunday School director
a VBS director
a gofer and sexton for a church building
a praise-band member
a newsletter editor and author
AND
a coffeehouse founder/director/booking agent/audio tech/performer/promotions manager/dessert chef/host/doorman/janitor.

Oh, I was also a member of a "messianic jewish" synagogue that was run by an ordained conservative Rabbi. Interestingly, that was one of the few places I've ever encountered that actually REPUDIATED Christianity and insisted that they were Jews first, foremost and only. I just couldn't take their brand of fundamentalism, either.

Now, then, can we PLEASE stop acting as though perhaps you have some secret power to share that's going to convert us all to your particular brand of Christianity?

You're not making it easy for people to want to help you out with clowning. There are people here who have been performing clowns for a long time and I learn from every post they make. Why? Because they're here to encourage CLOWNING.

One of the most insightful minds I have ever rummaged through belongs to a person that isn't even ALLOWED to post in the "church and ministry" section anymore for many of the same reasons I am writing this post. From what I gather, it's basically because this person saw the same manipulative, repeated-ad-nauseam proselytizing going on, and they just couldn't, or just didn't want to, phrase their responses as relatively tamely as I do.

There really is a serious amount of manipulation taking place here, Rodney. Your insistence that every post must contain debatable interpretations of a religious text, EVEN within the bounds of a "ministry clowning" sub-forum, tells me and a lot of others that you really have no interest in growing as a clown.

You pay lip service to the idea that you're still a "newbie" after 30 years. There's no WAY anyone (except most politicians) can be at something that long and never get any good at it.

If you insist on bringing up your particular take on religious doctrines every time you post, fine. Understand, however, that you are seriously going to limit the amount of give-and-take you experience with other members of the Forum when you do so.

Frankly, the religious tradition I favor is at LEAST 1000 years older than yours and either ignores or flatly denies most of the interpretations of the Bible that you insist so strongly on.

I could go on and on about my beliefs, but what you just read is probably the most I will EVER share publicly on this Forum about them.

I think I speak for a LOT of people when I say that this kind of thing is getting really old. You don't KNOW anyone here. You haven't reached out to anyone and attempted to meet any of their emotional, material or psychological needs, yet you've made it clear that you have THE ANSWER to everyone's problems.

I'm sure you've made some friends here on the Forum, but I am also very sure that the vast majority of them share your strident and narrow view of religion. The difference is, they get to live through you vicariously because they haven't the guts to "preach" out here like you do. And since a LOT of them have ZERO to contribute to discussions about clowning, they have no "tool" to use to "reach" the rest of us "non-believers".

Glupi

02-13-2011, 05:08 PM

Might as well close this one, too... after all, once we make a distinction between the art of clowning and the art of religious evangelism, there's nothing more to discuss. How dare any of us actually ask the "true believers" to make these threads relevant to CLOWNING and not just their belief system.

Oddly, I identify as a Christian, FWIW, and I have been involved in ministry with children for many years. I've managed to grasp the concept that sincere Christian belief is no more an ingredient in successful clowning than dish detergent is in vegetable soup. Have it in there if you like it, but please don't insist that it's REQUIRED.

Flip

02-13-2011, 09:17 PM

I will put in my two cents that messianic judaism is NOT real judaism. I remember having a couple of messianic jews come by my synagogue when I was young. They said they were jews so I started listening to them. I stopped shortly thereafter, and soon after that they were removed from the area. I have encountered people like this off and on, and think it is disgusting.
I have no problem with christianity (I graduated from a Jesuit university, and my mother and wife are christian). I have a BIG problem with christians trying to convert people though. In response to Normal's statement about being saved and going to hell being black and white, this is completely disgusting.

tim

02-14-2011, 01:07 AM

I have a BIG problem with christians trying to convert people though.

That doesn't concern me, inherently. I mean, if you believe that you have something which everyone else ought to want and consider it in their interests for them to find it, why not expose them to it?

Yet, a critical distinction comes between evangelization (which every Christian should consider his responsibility) and proselytizing. As Cardinal George has aptly put it (to summarize in essence if not his exact words), "An evangelizer listens first, then responds sincerely to the person before him with whom he interacts. A proselytlizer, on the other hand, speaks first; insisting that you listen to what he has to say." I might put it that an evangelizer witnesses by the simple living of his life in a certain way that is, hopefully, attractive if not even heroic. That is what ought to draw others in to want to know something more of what makes him who he is and desire something of the same Source. Naturally, he is really to offer a reason for the hope that is within him.

In response to Normal's statement about being saved and going to hell being black and white, this is completely disgusting.

What's worse... it leaves no room for purgatory. I want to see a good clown gag based around the idea of purgatory. All the funny lies in the tension between good and bad, anyway!

Glupi

02-14-2011, 08:54 AM

...if you believe that you have something which everyone else ought to want and consider it in their interests for them to find it, why not expose them to it?
Tim, that's the same rationale used by perverts in the schoolyard, and proselytizing so generally and generically is no different an endeavor than that of the raincoated stranger.

Yet, a critical distinction comes between evangelization (which every Christian should consider his responsibility) and proselytizing.
Oh, the beauty of those few words. Say an ounce, mean a ton.

"An evangelizer listens first, then responds sincerely to the person before him with whom he interacts. A proselytlizer, on the other hand, speaks first; insisting that you listen to what he has to say."
Indeed. In fact, there is a profoundly similar application to be made of these words in the arenas of both religious evangelization and the art of clowning. The "clown", so-called, (i.e., the religious zealot) who simply puts together a series of bits and doesn't bother to learn to improvise or to read his audience is no less annoying and usually ineffectual as the street-corner shouter. They are those whose greatest accomplishment is usually an argument or two. Yes, some people remember that they were there on a certain day, but it's often in SPITE of their "sincere" efforts, rather than BECAUSE of them. The clown who genuinely loves people, rather than loving his work or loving his "correctness" and his "devotion to truth", understands that each individual is unique and not only sees life differently, but is also affected BY life differently. There is simply no call for, neither is there any sense in, an effort to "preach" which simply lays out so-called "facts" and demands a generic response. One simply MUST see both the art of clowning and the very significant and important work of sharing belief, no matter what that belief may be, as an organic process that must take its own time. Some people fear the idea of the transcendent; would the religious "preacher" attempt to seize their uneasy minds the same way an uncaring clown would rush up on a fearful child? Unthinkable.

I might put it that an evangelizer witnesses by the simple living of his life in a certain way that is, hopefully, attractive if not even heroic. That is what ought to draw others in to want to know something more of what makes him who he is and desire something of the same Source. Naturally, he is really to offer a reason for the hope that is within him.
Likewise, the clown who is a performer, an artist, at heart, knows that his love for his craft and the dedication which he gives to it will be much more effective than any attempt to make himself "relevant" simply by virtue of the "right" clothes, props, etc. The cart, to borrow a phrase, is put before the horse every single time one of those turn/burn messages is thrown out at people. There is simply nothing attractive to anyone about the life or personality of someone that we see doing nothing but trying to win an argument that we didn't even know we were having with them! Honestly, the person who reaches out to those around them with love, humor and a willingness to share their artistic gifts with the world is MUCH more effective than any person who makes it clear that people are potential converts who only need to be shown the ONE THING, so easily summarized, that they just never considered before. How arrogant and insensitive such an attitude is. All the fire and brimstone in the world isn't going to make a person turn to the "preacher" or their god; it's just going to provoke a fear-based reaction that makes people run AWAY from whatever they are afraid of. The effect is NO different than what is demonstrably proven in the life of every drug or booze addict on Earth. They are not in LOVE with their drug or their drink; they are simply using the substances and the false feelings of escape and relative security to cover up their fear of the world around them.

I've said before and will say again that the Christian clown has a power that the Christian preacher simply does not. It's not a power to re-hash what the preachers already say; it's a power to cause people to consider the WHY of what they believe rather than simply the ABCs of so-called "doctrine". People should be given the opportunity to see the believer's faith in action long before, if not completely separated from, their belief as diatribe/lecture/confrontation.

Prose

02-14-2011, 11:00 AM

That doesn't concern me, inherently. I mean, if you believe that you have something which everyone else ought to want and consider it in their interests for them to find it, why not expose them to it?

I think spreading one's word is fine. Informing others about your religion is a good way to clear up misconceptions about one's religion and give it a new light.
However I dislike when others continue to press the issue of conversion after I've already said "no."
I can almost compare it to a persistent salesman trying to sell me a vacuum when I already have a perfectly good vacuum that I'm happy with, and as a result have no interest in the one he's selling.

Boobu

02-14-2011, 11:12 AM

But his vacum sucks more.

Disclaimer: The above should in NO way be taken as a religeous metiphore and does not represent the views of this station or its affilliates. I saw a pun and couldnt stop myself. Now throw all the pies you want.):p

Prose

02-14-2011, 11:34 AM

But his vacum sucks more.

Well played...

Salvo The Clown

02-14-2011, 12:55 PM

the purpose of church is to spread the message of the bible and fellowship with other christians clowning is just anouther tool you can use to do those things

That's a good answer, thanks for posting it too!

Yours in Service.

Salvo (Founder of The Annual Clowns Directory)

The Annual Clowns Directory (http://www.annualclownsdirectory.com)

Glupi

02-14-2011, 01:22 PM

the purpose of church is to spread the message of the bible and fellowship with other christians clowning is just anouther tool you can use to do those things

No, it isn't. The purpose of the church (according to the Bible) is to TEACH the already-initiated the deeper details of their faith. The purpose of church, according to the zealots, is to take people who have zero influence and little to no training and send them out into the world to annoy people with illogical arguments, fallacies and straight-up bigotry, especially against those without whom, the Bible as you have it today would not even exist. That would be the Jewish and Catholic populations, BTW.

Clowning is NOT a tool... clown is an art form. When you perform as a clown, your performance IS the point. When you "use clowning as a tool", the point is something else and it makes for bad, cheap, humorless clowning.

Trying to reach children's minds by dressing up as a clown in order to preach your religion is no better than handing out candy at the park so the little kids will come closer. It's perverted. The mind of a child is in NO way able to process any more than the barest of facts and figures, and insisting upon their acceptance of and belief in a complex moral and socio-political theology is tantamount to child abuse.

Salvo, please try to contribute something to these discussions if you can, so we know you're not just another cheerleader for the "ban the unbelievers" squad.

LuvLee

02-14-2011, 02:30 PM

I just had a breath of fresh air,,,,,

I stood against a brick wall and told it what I was thinking and what I am feeling on this subject.
I was heard and it didn't even try to convert me into a ,,,,brick wall, (or a vacuum cleaner).

All is good,,,,,:D:):)

tim

02-14-2011, 04:06 PM

No, it isn't. The purpose of the church (according to the Bible) is to TEACH the already-initiated the deeper details of their faith.

While this is certainly one important aspect of the Church's purpose (to foster a greater relationship of its members with Christ, her head) I think that to limit its mission as such is awful shortsighted and parochial. "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." Indeed, the witness of the Church is intended to be a public one, not just privatized. The word "gospel", itself, has an entomological history of being the proclamation of good news concerning a king and his kingdom, to which others are expected to be gathered.

HOW that is done in respecting individual's consciences to make a choice of hearing/accepting or not, however, is key to its success or difficulty.

Clowning is NOT a tool... clown is an art form. When you perform as a clown, your performance IS the point. When you "use clowning as a tool", the point is something else and it makes for bad, cheap, humorless clowning.

No argument there! :-)

But a clown skit satiring a pushy witness attempting to bring others to his clown king sure could be funny.

Flip

02-14-2011, 06:20 PM

Glupi

02-14-2011, 10:24 PM

...I think that to limit its mission as such is awful shortsighted and parochial. "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature."
Actually, the phrase in the original languages represents more a charge to "make disciples" rather than simply to proclaim things publicly.

Indeed, the witness of the Church is intended to be a public one, not just privatized.
Agreed. However, the witness of the Church is comprised of LIVING like Christ did and DOING, to some extent, the things that he did. Given the Church's position on the necessity of catechism and confirmation (which processes exist in almost every religion in some way), however, it seems rather odd that we should expect to convert people on the strength of public preaching alone. The witness of a life well lived is ALWAYS more powerful than any concise, argumentative statements.

The word "gospel", itself, has an entomological history of being the proclamation of good news concerning a king and his kingdom, to which others are expected to be gathered.
Again, true. The proclamation, however, must primarily focus on the WORK of the king within that kingdom. Too often, people who call themselves Christian evangelists are busy trying to make a big deal out of what happened in history while Jesus was alive. Those things are certainly important, but they leave out the idea that Jesus was pointing to a yet-to-be-realized kingdom, a kingdom that he anticipated as being securely within the framework of his Jewish identity and heritage. The phrase "the world to come" appears a LOT in the words attributed to Jesus; evangelism must be primarily a matter of demonstrating the characteristics of a coming kingdom and inviting people to learn all about it, rather than about haranguing people with scare-tactics and cheap emotional ploys like stories about dear departed relatives.

Wow... a THINKER talking about the Church in the world! VERY interesting! Thanks, Tim!

tim

02-15-2011, 02:51 AM

Flip

02-15-2011, 08:30 AM

What wins people over to be taken in with what you have to offer and wanting to be a part of it?

Ignorance and fear

Darrell

02-15-2011, 09:42 AM

The idea of going around "spreading the gospel" is disrespectful to everyone else. It doesn't really matter, I am sorry to say, how you justify it to yourself. You are still going around saying "My beliefs state that they are the best and that if you don't believe in the same way you are going to a place that we made up called hell." (Jews do not believe in hell, so it is not a great argument). It is saying that our beliefs, ones that have existed for millenia longer than Christianity, are punishable for eternity.
Does that sound right to anyone? If it does, talk to a therapist.

I don't agree with Christians forcing views on others who have made it clear they aren't interested. But I don't have a problem with someone, whether they are a Christian or another religion, that comes to me and sincerely believes that I will be a happier person if I follow their views. If they aren't offensive, arrogant, and I can see love in their eyes and in their speech, I don't mind them at all.

As a Christian, I find that listening to others and getting to know them by "walking in their shoes", I am able to represent what I believe better and then others are more receptive to what I have to say. No need to force beliefs on others. That only creates hostility.

Glupi

02-15-2011, 09:46 AM

So, your comments have me wondering, "What would the similarities or differences be between street performing and street preaching?" Are there areas in which "pitch" relates to both for drawing in an audience or "hatting" in relation to taking up collections for a cause? What wins people over to be taken in with what you have to offer and wanting to be a part of it?

Street performance, in many, if not all cases, relies on both your actual abilities as a performer AND on your ability to get people's attention when you're trying to draw a crowd that isn't already paying attention. I suppose street preaching is similar, but the major problem with street preaching is that most preachers have such a sharply-defined message, such a strict 'angle'. It is very easy for passers-by to listen for a moment or two and then move on, if they even stop at all. Street performance is very often easier to interpret in a wider variety of ways. People can draw lots of different conclusions about a mime, a clown, a juggler, even a poet. Street 'preaching', in its modern iteration, is an 18th century development that really got popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Those who lived earlier that practiced 'street preaching', for lack of a better term, were very often representatives of communal or monastic organizations. Again, as has been mentioned before, their message was directly tied to the EXAMPLE of the life they lived. There was much to be gained from them having built their reputations in the places where they gave out their message.

Most street preachers today are akin to a totally unknown person attempting to fill a huge lecture hall or theater for one of their lectures. No one is likely to wander in to listen, and the lack of any recognizable identity makes it nearly impossible to draw people.

Success in street performance is always based on some ability to arouse curiosity, interrupt the mundaneness of someone's commute down a sidewalk and impress, humor or otherwise stir the emotions of those who stop to watch.

If the average Christian do-gooder wanted to see more success in their random evangelism, they would do well to mine the history of the minstrels, the bards and the mountebanks and take on some of the techniques of monologue and solo theatrical performance. A message should be presented with style, with innuendo as to its deeper meaning and with conviction that a little taste now will hold out the promise of more to come. Street 'preachers' today are trying to sprint when the race is a marathon.

Zeeppo

02-15-2011, 11:54 AM

The idea of going around "spreading the gospel" is disrespectful to everyone else. It doesn't really matter, I am sorry to say, how you justify it to yourself. You are still going around saying "My beliefs state that they are the best and that if you don't believe in the same way you are going to a place that we made up called hell." (Jews do not believe in hell, so it is not a great argument). It is saying that our beliefs, ones that have existed for millenia longer than Christianity, are punishable for eternity.
Does that sound right to anyone? If it does, talk to a therapist.

No where does the Bible say that Jews are going to Hell. In fact God promised the JEws that they would always be his people if they kept his laws. So either God is lying or Christian that make such claims are wrong. In addition the scriptures states "Judge not lest you be Judged" Thus we should not be telling people that they are going to Hell anyway. It is not our place to judge.

Your position that no one should evangelise is wrong though. the free expression of ideas is esential to a free society.If someone is expressing their beleifs in a way tha degrades someone else that person is a bad messenger. That does not make the messasge invalid. And saldy there are lots of Evangelists out there that are not good at their jobs.

In addition all clowns have a message of happiness that they are trying to express to everyone.Even the most jaded party clown should hope that everyone leavestheir party happier than when they came in. they may not care about the person's happiness. Still they want people to be happy so they will hire them again.

Glupi

02-15-2011, 01:16 PM

"Tower Control, this is Zeeppo. Requesting permission to miss the point entirely."

Zeeppo, do you even UNDERSTAND the difference between "free expression of ideas" and arguing or proselytizing? I really don't think you do.

Here's a clue, to get you started... DON'T go around telling someone what "God promised" to THEIR PEOPLE when the person you are writing to DOESN'T BELIEVE in the "God" of the so-called "New Testament". You're essentially speaking a foreign language.

Let me give you another example of why this kind of "the Bible says" business just doesn't do you any good.

Suppose I said to you, "Zarbon, the great King of Gorbos, decrees that all Mingos and Kleebs are doomed to an eternity in Imidrun unless they losko and accept Bortal as their Veenit."

You'd have several major problems on your hands. First, you'd be wondering what the hell I was talking about. Then, hopefully, assuming your mental faculties were in order, you'd start by asking DEFINITIONS of almost every other word I used.

It's no different when you come storming in with your presupposition that your Bible is true. There's nothing wrong with living and thinking that way UNTO YOURSELF, but you simply can't address people with what your Bible says as though it's "the truth" to THEM as well.

You have got to try and give people some conceptual understanding of words like "God", "His people", "His laws" etc. Now, in Flip's case, as in the case of Alex and others, there already IS an understanding of their Jewish heritage and some ideas of relationship with God. The issue is that their definition doesn't match yours. At ALL.

From now on, if you're going to jump in AFTER Flip and others have made it clear that they are NOT interested in the "proof" that you have from the Bible concerning "the Jews", please bear in mind that the best you can hope for is to be ignored.

A "free expression" of ideas is one based on a mutual SHARING of those ideas, not a game of one-upmanship where whatever someone says needs to be "beaten" by some snippet from your Bible.

Just stop telling people who didn't ask, things they don't believe about subjects in which you are clearly outgunned. That should make the "free expression of ideas" just a little easier.

By the way, what does telling people they are wrong about God and religion have to do with being a party clown that makes people happy? You fundamentalist types keep insisting that "happiness" is a synonym for "listening to and accepting the evangelical fundamentalist gospel message." It's not. Try making FUNNY the goal of your clowning efforts instead of "make people happy by insisting that I'm right about my religion and they all need to agree."

Oh, and Zeeppo, just so you know, you managed to "show your hand" in a post back in January. You said, "Currently I run a troupe that does this. We were created to evangelise and visit people in hospitals."

I recall you dodging that particular bit of information in other threads where you were insisting that creating great clowns was the goal of your work.

I guess you're admitting now, by posts like the one you just made in response to Flip, that what you're really out there (and in here) for is to "do the Lord's work" and not to further the art of clowning.

Good to know.

tim

02-15-2011, 01:50 PM

How did the cultural commentators of street artistry in past centuries (whether it was a mime which was critical of the authorities or the purveyors of some morality play) build their audiences? (One if left to wonder.)

Glupi

02-15-2011, 02:21 PM

Well, I think in the pre-industrial era, they built their audiences out of old clothes stuffed with hay, or perhaps built wooden facades that were painted to look like people. Of course, regional and ethnic stylistic interpretations varied, so not every crowd was an exacting representation of a bunch of human beings gathered together.

Seriously, though... I gotta million of 'em!

We need to be careful that we don't overlay our multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-religious soceity's characteristics onto the societies of the past. People were generally understood to accept most concepts about authority, religion, science (in its time) and politics in roughly the same way. Of course, there were varying opinions about what was right or wrong, good or bad, but you didn't have a plethora of fly-by-night theories and philosophies springing up everywhere like you do these days.

We also need to remember that artistry, be it through physical media, music, dance or other avenues, was one of the most common forms of mass communication in centuries past. Town criers, wandering minstrels, mountebanks, traveling theater troupes; these all were not only a welcome distraction from the drudgeries of daily life, they were some of the only messengers of variant ideas and opinions in cultures that were dominated by the whims and mores of the rich and landed aristocracy.

Today, we have a much freer world and a vast array of channels through which we can explore almost any idea or philosophy we choose to. Art is more constantly ignored in favor of commercially-lucrative imitations now than ever in history, yet artists also enjoy freedoms and resources that were previously almost totally unattainable by the average performer. We have video cameras, musical instruments, costumes, cars, hotel rooms and so much more all available at a price of PENNIES in comparison to what people many years ago had to pay. That, of course, was only if they even HAD such resources to be able to buy in the first place!

I could spend less than $500 today and make a studio-quality, radio-ready music recording without leaving my home and with almost no modifications to my house's structure. Even 20 years ago, that would have been impossible.

My point is that while these advances make the CREATION of art (or of cheap crap) easier, the advances don't make GETTING AN AUDIENCE any easier. In fact, artistic creativity and integrity is more important now than ever if one is to attract the attention of the public. They are just too jaded to care about every Tom, Dick and Dick that comes along with a "message".

That can clearly be seen in the thread concerning the short film that was posted about "being on a quest for love". People just couldn't be bothered because they have just seen too much pedestrian, shallow nonsense.

Truth, especially transcendent and mind-opening truth like things that deal with our hearts and souls, needs to be expressed in much greater, broader and more beautiful and poignant ways if it is to matter to others the way it matters to the 'preacher'.

Glupi

02-15-2011, 02:26 PM

What's that ignorant of The Lord's death on the cross for you and me, in fact everyone :-)

As for the fear part that must be the fear of of not knowing what a difference can be made in YOUR life when you ask him into it :-)

Salvo, I mean this... if that is the best you can offer in a thread that has rocketed FAR beyond "pretty please come to Jesus", then, please...

...do shut up.

Bear in mind that asking you to "shut up" is the NICEST I am going to be about it, thread-lockers and speech-censors be hanged.

Zeeppo

02-15-2011, 09:58 PM

[COLOR="Blue"]Zeeppo, do you even UNDERSTAND the difference between "free expression of ideas" and arguing or proselytizing? I really don't think you do.
COLOR]

Glupi you goal appears to be to beat up everyone that does not follow lock step with your way of thinking. That may be the sort of thing that some folks are scared of. You have everything we do without ever having witnessed it.

A Free expression of ideas mean just that. You can say that God is a big pink Bunny named Harvey and not go to jail over it. You can scream that at the top of your lungs on street corner and it is tollerated.

As for the procedure our groups uses. i did answer that once and I will repeat it. The clowns go through the Nursing Home, Hospital or what ever first. We juggle do ballon animals (if permitted), magic tell joke and do bits and gags. Behind follows a minster. She talks with folks, offers prayer. She does not give out material invite people to our church or anything of the sort. She is just there for their needs at that time. We do keep a few bible in our kit because people ask for them from time to time.

You finish by once again attacking us and claiming theat we are not furthering "The Art of Clowning". We have a program that you do not like. We train Children that you claim is mistake. Never mind that we also train adults.

You do not even have a picture of yourself as a clown on your avatar. Yet you can attack anyone else's make up (An example of free expression by the way). All we know is that you have been trying to get into Big Bertha and do not have an agent. You berate other people on this site apparently for fun. Where is your contribution to continuing clowning?

Alex is interning for an oganization that is encouraging the next generation of clowns. Several other people teach seminars. Still others run this site. Many others offer helpful advice and encouragement.

I feely said how I am trying to further clowning. You may not like it but at least I am doing something.

This may be off subject but we have to admit the Circus is not nearly as profitable as it once was. New Classes of clowns are going to rise up and take the place the void left by the Big top. All art has to be paid for by someone. Other wise the artist starves and dies (In the case of Painters their children make the money after they die). Hospitals are begining to pay clowns. Churches are beging to pay clowns. Binai Bri'th is paying clowns and developing Humor Therapy materials. These groups will only continue to flourish as the Circus looses it's importance in the clowning world.

I do hope that there will always be shows under Canvas. I treasured that part of my youth and would not trade it for anything. Still, I have admit there are great clowns being trained outside the circus in ways that they never were before.

Complaine and attack all you want. Sadly you have not brought another plan to the table.

Glupi

02-15-2011, 11:29 PM

Glupi you goal appears to be to beat up everyone that does not follow lock step with your way of thinking. That may be the sort of thing that some folks are scared of. You have everything we do without ever having witnessed it.
Oh, really? Beat up everyone that doesn't agree with me? Let's see... Pickles is a Christian clown who twists balloons and paints faces. She's a creative, funny, enjoyable clown that I am glad to know. Tim (Sally Rand these days... nice legs, Timmy!) is committed to his faith, is a multi-talented performer as well as a 'party clown' and is one of the more intelligent people I have had the chance to dialogue with. Barry Daft is an ATHEIST, FFS. He and I have several BIG things that we don't agree 100% on. He also clowns for an audience (generally adults and the pub crowd) that I would have a little more trouble with. He and I understand one another just fine. That, Zeeppo, is the substance of STFU Number One. There are a couple more coming.

A Free expression of ideas mean just that. You can say that God is a big pink Bunny named Harvey and not go to jail over it. You can scream that at the top of your lungs on street corner and it is tollerated.
Yes, you're right. Your belief in your God is tolerated. Asking you to stop cramming it down people's throats, however, IS NOT TOLERATED. I purposely don't spell out my beliefs AT ALL in any great detail on this Forum, Zeeppo, because I don't want anyone misunderstanding me. This is NOT a place where you're allowed to cry and whine because your evangelistic brain-washing BS isn't welcome. That's STFU Number Two.

As for the procedure our groups uses. i did answer that once and I will repeat it. The clowns go through the Nursing Home, Hospital or what ever first. We juggle do ballon animals (if permitted), magic tell joke and do bits and gags. Behind follows a minster. She talks with folks, offers prayer. She does not give out material invite people to our church or anything of the sort. She is just there for their needs at that time. We do keep a few bible in our kit because people ask for them from time to time.
Mind telling us what the hell "(our troupe) was CREATED TO EVANGELIZE" means, then? You make it sound all Waltons and warm and friendly. Yet every time you get called on your "I use clowning to spread my religious message" crap, you dance around it like Fred friggin' Astaire. STFU #3.

You finish by once again attacking us and claiming theat we are not furthering "The Art of Clowning". We have a program that you do not like. We train Children that you claim is mistake. Never mind that we also train adults.
Never mind that you also claim to make these people Master Clowns in less than ten years. You CREATED the group for the specific purpose of spreading your religion. Your home-made tunic has a freaking Salvation Army logo on it the size of a small child's head. STOP acting like such a martyr. I understand what your program is about, unicycles or no.

1. You do not even have a picture of yourself as a clown on your avatar. Yet you can attack anyone else's make up (An example of free expression by the way).

2.All we know is that you have been trying to get into Big Bertha and do not have an agent.

3. You berate other people on this site apparently for fun.

4.Where is your contribution to continuing clowning?

1. Want to buy the disabled, unemployed person a digital camera? Want to make time for me to pose for you, big boy? I bet you'd love that.

2. Trying to get into Big Bertha? WTF are you talking about? I'm not trying to get into a circus, you idiot. I'm not a circus performer. Try reading a little more carefully before you spew.

3. I berate people on this site apparently for fun? Examples, please. What 'berating' have I done? Did I get a little snarky because a) some people can't shut up about their invisible friends and their magic powers and b) because I don't like to see decent, creative people marginalized because they're not yamma religious zombies like your lot? DEAL WITH IT. TOO EFFING BAD.

4. Where is my contribution to continuing clowning?

http://www.clown-forum.com/newbies-clowning/12718-some-questions-post151888.html#post151888
http://www.clown-forum.com/clown-forum/12726-mechanics-humour-post151862.html#post151862
http://www.clown-forum.com/church-ministry-clowning/10223-gospel-clowns-let-me-pick-your-brains.html#post151273
http://www.clown-forum.com/newbies-clowning/12631-i-just-wondering.html#post151078
http://www.clown-forum.com/clown-forum/12599-do-you-ever-post150687.html#post150687
http://www.clown-forum.com/clown-forum/12531-profession-post150046.html#post150046
http://www.clown-forum.com/skit-improv/12438-prop-comedy-post148677.html#post148677
http://www.clown-forum.com/costumes/12444-ever-tried.html#post148821
http://www.clown-forum.com/clown-forum/12473-back-basics.html#post149394
http://www.clown-forum.com/skit-improv/12654-fully-formed-clown-character.html#post151202

STFU #4.

Alex is interning for an oganization that is encouraging the next generation of clowns. Several other people teach seminars. Still others run this site. Many others offer helpful advice and encouragement.
Helpful advice and encouragement... I've been thanked 266 times in 95 posts. I've been here for about 2 and a half months. You've been here since January 13th of this year, have posted nearly TWICE as much as I have and have gotten thanked 57 times in 41 posts. No, I haven't said anything that anyone thought was helpful. At least I said my useless stuff in 1/2 the number of posts you have.

I feely said how I am trying to further clowning. You may not like it but at least I am doing something.
I don't care what you think you are doing. You assume that because I don't have a website for you to drool at that I'm not DOING anything with my clowning? I don't see it as a business, so I guess all the FREE entertaining I do for people ALL THE TIME means nothing because I'm not selling anything.

Blah, blah, circus, blah, blah, hospitals, blah blah.
I've been entertaining and visiting people in hospitals for nearly 30 years, Zeeppo. I started working in a visitation ministry when I was SEVEN years old, and that was in a position that was EQUAL to the adults I was with. I've understood Humor Therapy for a lot longer than you have, since I didn't need the Patch Adams movie and some trendy lingo to DO what you're so 'in the know' about. Once again, you demonstrated by your words that the religious organizations are light-years behind the world of the performing arts in bringing positivity, laughter and hope to people that need it. While your kind was busy pushing hellfire religion, I was walking the halls of hospitals for free. Let B'nai Brith and everyone else start paying "clowns"... if you're the kind they hire, I feel sorry for them.

Complaine and attack all you want. Sadly you have not brought another plan to the table.
I haven't brought another plan to the table? How about the plan that says take your craft seriously and learn some basic, common-sense performing skills before you go trying to impress people with a couple of juggling bits? How about the plan that says DEVELOP your character instead of trying to push your way into people's lives by virtue of your red nose alone?

Maybe you'd like to consider the plan that I offer time and time again on here, which is basically LEARN YOUR DAMNED PLACE, IN THE ART AND THE FORUM BEFORE YOU COME IN HERE AND POST 300 FREAKING TIMES ABOUT NOTHING MUCH.

Yes, so you've had a lot of chances to organize more than I have. I'm ONE person without any money, and without a big non-profit group behind me. So, you've trained people. Good for you. That makes you so much better than me.

Complain? I'm not complaining. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms that you're a moron and have nothing to say to me or anyone but the newest of noobs about clowning, and that's because they don't know any better.

Any time you feel like dropping all the other motives like MONEY, RELIGIOUS CONVERSION and being the boss of a bunch of 12 year old Master Clowns, you just pop on over to my area and we can go clowning in the streets, NO Salvation Army costumes, no 'Humor Therapy' guidelines... just YOU, the street and the jaded general public. I can guarantee that you'd leave frustrated and defeated. You bring nothing to the table that I don't have in spades over a guy like you. I was performing as a totally unknown entity while you were still in Sunday School.